Suggested Guidelines for Classes

[Rolina]

Right now, ideas are being throw out without much consistency between people.  This thread's purpose is have a method of standardization by which people can follow so we have a better job of streamlining the final product.  Basically, fill out the form and post it in the classes thread so that when comparing class suggestions, it's easier to do.

Character Name:  Sarah, Lexi, Alan, or Saito.
Class Position:  *see below*
Class Name:  What the class line is referred to as.  For example:  Squire Line, Angel line, etc.  Usually either the first or last class in the line.  This is so we have a standardized way of referring to it in shorthand.
Line details:  Each class in the line and their statistical layout.  See below.

Suggested Psynergy:  Which psynergy, bot canon and custom, you suggest for the class.  Do not suggest levels learned, just which psynergy lines.  For lines you come up with here, please go define them in the psynergy thread.
Why this class?:  Make your case for the class.  Why do you suggest this class for this character?
Other Notes:  Other notes you want to share, such as what thematics the class uses and why you chose them.

About Class Position:  There are 9 positions to choose from.  They are defined here:

• Base - this is the adept in their natural form.  Purely their innate element.  Base lines have 5 Tiers of power.  Examples of this line include Squire and Angel.
  
• Dual Symbiotic - this is the adept when using djinn of the element which is symbiotic to their own.  Dual Symbiotic lines have 6 Tiers of power.  Examples include Brute and Hermit.
  
• Dual Adjacent - this is the adept when using djinn of the element which is neutral to their own.  Dual Adjacent lines have 5 Tiers of power.  Examples include Isaac's Swordsman and Mia's Oracle lines.
  
• Dual Opposite - this is the adept when using djinn of the element which is opposite to their own.  Dual Opposite lines have 5 Tiers of power.  Examples include Garet's Swordsman and Ivan's Oracle lines.
  
• Tri Adjacent - When an adept uses both their symbiotic and neutral elements, with neutral taking priority.  Tri Adjacent lines have 3 Tiers of power.  Examples include Garet's Ninja line and Ivan's Ranger line.
  
• Tri Opposite - When an adept uses both their symbiotic and opposing elements, with opposing taking priority.  Tri Opposite lines have 3 Tiers of power.  Examples include Isaac's Ninja line and Mia's Ranger line.
  
• Tri Hybrid A - When an adept uses both their symbiotic and neutral elements, with symbiotic taking priority.  Tri Hybrid A lines have 2 Tiers of power.  Examples include Garet's Ronin and Mia's Pure Mage lines.
  
• Tri Hybrid O - When an adept uses both their symbiotic and opposing elements, with symbiotic taking priority.  Tri Hybrid O lines have 2 Tiers of power.  Examples include Isaac's Ronin and Ivan's Pure Mage lines.
  
• Item - Classes independent of character.  Traditionally they have 4 Tiers in the class line, though Item classes could theoretically be as unique as the item that bestow them.

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A character will have one of each class, save for item classes, which will be looked at independently and allowed as we have room for them.  That means 8 natural class lines, or a total of 31 classes for each character.  Since the goal is to have each character with their own entirely independent line, meaning no sharing classes if we can help it, that brings us to a total of 32 lines that need to be made, with a total of 124 classes in all.


Line Details

The line details section includes statistical layout.  However, as we not had the discussion over whether to use flat or weighted values, nor what totals we will aim for, for the sake of comparison we will use flat values with pre-set total class values.  Please note that this is to compare classes to one another only, and that it is subject to change in the final product.  Actual values suggested to be used in no way reflect the values we will wind up using in the end.  Please keep that in mind when addressing this post and do not bring up any pointless banter about what system of balance is better than another until such a discussion is actually needed.

Rules for statistical layout:  

• For sake of better understanding the intent with each class, we will be using the 15-10-5 method for the comparison stats.  At each class up, HP will raise by 15, all stats but luck will raise by 10, and 5 more points will be placed in the class line anywhere but luck.  It is also to be noted that with the exception of HP, the 5 points cannot go into the same stat two tiers in a row.  Again, this does not represent the final product, but rather is being used to better express what the statistical intent of the class itself is.
• Tier 1 values may not go below 70.  Upper limits are:  140 for HP and PP, 125 for ATK and DEF, and 135 for AGL and LUK.  Since Tri Adjascent, Tri Opposite classes start at Tier 3 instead, and Tri Hybrid O and A at Tier 4, please adjust the values accordingly.  Again, please note that these values do not reflect the final product.
• The statistical totals to be used for each class are as follows:
  • Base Tier 1: 615
  • Base Tier 2: 675
  • Base Tier 3: 735
  • Base Tier 4: 795
  • Base Tier 5: 855
  • Dual Opposite and Adjacent Tier 1: 645
  • Dual Opposite and Adjacent Tier 2: 705
  • Dual Opposite and Adjacent Tier 3: 765
  • Dual Opposite and Adjacent Tier 4: 825
  • Dual Opposite and Adjacent Tier 5: 885
  • Dual Symbiotic Tier 1: 605
  • Dual Symbiotic Tier 2: 665
  • Dual Symbiotic Tier 3: 725
  • Dual Symbiotic Tier 4: 785
  • Dual Symbiotic Tier 5: 845
  • Dual Symbiotic Tier 6: 905
  • Tri Opposite and Adjacent Tier 3: 785
  • Tri Opposite and Adjacent Tier 4: 845
  • Tri Opposite and Adjacent Tier 5: 905
  • Tri Hybrid O and A Tier 4: 855
  • Tri Hybrid O and A Tier 5: 915
  • Item Classes are as unique as the item that bestows them, and will be done in an on-case basis
• Luck may never increase as a result of a Tier Up within a single class line, with possible exception to an item class.
• Classes may never decrease in statistical value at Tier Up, with possible exception to an item class.
• And again, the values used here are to be used for comparison purposes, and in no way reflect the final method of balancing classes statistically.  That is a method that has yet to be discussed and determined, so all values are to be used as placeholders for the time being.

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A class line, in the end, will look something like this:

	Max HP	Max PP	Attack	Defense	Agility	Luck	Total
Class Tier 1	115	90	100	100	90	120	615
Class Tier 2	130	100	110	115	100	120	675
Class Tier 3	145	110	125	125	110	120	735
Class Tier 4	165	120	135	135	120	120	795
Class Tier 5	185	130	145	145	130	120	855

You do not have to use fancy formatting if you do not wish to, but you are required to use a table to make it easier to read.  A copy-paste script is provided for you.  If you do wish to have fancy formatting, such as bold class names and row headers, and right aligned numbers, you may if you so desire, just throw in the proper tags.
The reason total is included, despite the fact that it should be implied by the class line itself, is for people who submit item classes, which do not, and probably should not, follow trends (arguably even 15-10-5, to an extent.  Tier ups in item classes are likely to be more profound, as they require more djinn to Tier up, and only have 4 tiers.  In order to make them viable, it is recommended that the min Tier 1 Item total is 605, and the Max Tier 4 item total be ~895ish.  These are not exact values, though.)

Finally, a script is provided:

Code:

[b]Character Name[/b]:
[b]Class Position[/b]:
[b]Class Name[/b]:
[b]Line details[/b]:[table]
[tr][td][/td]                [td]Max HP[/td][td]Max PP[/td][td]Attack[/td][td]Defense[/td][td]Agility[/td][td]Luck[/td][td]Total[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Class Tier 1[/td][td][/td]          [td][/td]          [td][/td]         [td][/td]          [td][/td]        [td][/td]      [td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Class Tier 2[/td][td][/td]          [td][/td]          [td][/td]         [td][/td]          [td][/td]        [td][/td]      [td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Class Tier 3[/td][td][/td]          [td][/td]          [td][/td]         [td][/td]          [td][/td]        [td][/td]      [td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Class Tier 4[/td][td][/td]          [td][/td]          [td][/td]         [td][/td]          [td][/td]        [td][/td]      [td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Class Tier 5[/td][td][/td]          [td][/td]          [td][/td]         [td][/td]          [td][/td]        [td][/td]      [td][/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Class Tier 6[/td][td][/td]          [td][/td]          [td][/td]         [td][/td]          [td][/td]        [td][/td]      [td][/td][/tr]
[/table]

[b]Suggested Psynergy[/b]:

[b]Why this class?[/b]:

[b]Other Notes[/b]:

The table is spaced so that the fields are lined up better when you copy/paste the script into the post field.  This will not show up in the actual post, so don't worry about it lining stuff up wrong, it should be fine.  Also, make sure to remove the "Class Tier XYZ" part, as well as the entire row for any tier not used in the class line.  To help, and as a visual cue, when posted in the raw format, the copy-paste script will look like this:

Character Name:
Class Position:
Class Name:
Line details:

	Max HP	Max PP	Attack	Defense	Agility	Luck	Total
Class Tier 1
Class Tier 2
Class Tier 3
Class Tier 4
Class Tier 5
Class Tier 6

Suggested Psynergy:

Why this class?:

Other Notes:

Example of the overall product will be posted by me in the class thread as my first submission.  Also, first person to guess what I used and tweaked to fit my example gets 5 coins.  Only the first person to guess right may recieve the prize.  You only have to be technially correct.


Also, keep in mind - people are going to comment, make suggestions, and give their input on your ideas.  Do not write this off - input from other users can help hone and refine your ideas to be even better!  Don't get confrontational, instead of saying "Stop attacking me!", say instead "What's your reasoning?"

[Rolina]

Characters, thematics, and Psynergy.

This post talks about what role the characters play in the party, and as such what their classes should likely reflect.  In this, four class types are discussed:  Innate, Symbiotic, Adjacent, and Opposite.  Innate refers to the natural form their psynergy takes form in - so the form of the base class.  Symbiotic is the form that spells take when paired with their symbiotic element.  Adjacent is the form spells take when paired with the element neutral to them.  Opposite for opposing elements.  These rules do not apply to item classes, only natural classes.

Sarah

In real life, Sarah is a nurse.  This is reflected by being the healer of the group.  Her classes should be more healing/support oriented overall compared to the rest of the cast, but that does not mean that she shouldn't have offensive spells.  Her innate spell type was agreed upon to be "Plant" based, to go with the theme of medicine (medicinal herbs, etc).  Classes are all mage-style, and should trend with healing and party support in mind.

Recommendations:

Innate:    Plant,  N/A,  N/A,  N/A
Symbiotic:    Stone,  Flame,  Wind,  Water or Steam
Adjacent:    Plant,  Burst or Acidic,  Wind  Water or Ice
Opposite:    Stone/Sand,  Burst or Flame,  Wind,  Water or Ice



Lexi

Lexi was agreed upon as being a studious type who's kinda lacking in the people skills.  An actual element style for her was not agreed upon or discussed (oops), for suggestions for both IF: Flame and IF: Burst will be provided.  As far as her class is concerned, she's considered more of an attack mage, like Himi was.  To be a bit of a balance to Sarah, who typically does buffs, Lexi will probably lean more towards debuffs and ailments for her support skills.  Classes should be mage style, and should trend with offense and malediction in mind.

Recommendations:

IF:  Flame

Innate:    N/A,  Flame,  N/A,  N/A
Symbiotic:    Stone,  Flame,  Wind,  Water
Adjacent:    Stone/Sand,  Burst,  Bolt  Water
Opposite:    Plant,  Burst or Acidic,  Wind or Stellar,  Water or Steam

IF:  Burst

Innate:    N/A,  Burst,  N/A,  N/A
Symbiotic:    Stone,  Flame,  Wind,  Water
Adjacent:    Stone/Sand,  Flame,  Bolt  Water
Opposite:    Plant,  Burst or Acidic,  Wind or Stellar,  Water or Steam



Alan

In real life, Alan is a craftsman of sorts.  Though not an outdoorsman per se, it's said he thinks more clearly when outside.  As such, classes should reflect the hands-on nature of the character, being more practical oriented as opposed to "knightly".  Alan is the squire of the group, though several people have recommended him be a little more defensive oriented than the more traditional offensive oriented squire, to compliment the team better.  Though not a pure tank, he is the most tank-like of the group, so something like a cross between Garet and Piers, but Jupiter.  I guess.  Generally accepted to be a wind user.  Classes are physical style, and should trend to be well rounded and/or sturdy.


Recommendations:

Innate:    N/A,  N/A,  Wind,  N/A
Symbiotic:    Stone/Sand,  Burst or Acidic,  Bolt,  Ice
Adjacent:    Stone/Sand,  Flame or Burst,  Bolt,  Water
Opposite:    Stone/Sand,  Flame or Burst,  Wind,  Water or Ice



Saito

Saito is a programmer, as well as a fan of the Golden Sun series.  He hails from japan, and has some training in Kendo.  His classes should reflect his origins if possible, and try to stick to being more oriental themed in nature.  Being the only one trained in some form of actual physical combat, he is the attacker of the group - overall, his classes trend to being higher in attack power than other characters.  His innate form is Water.  Classes should by physical style, and trend with offense in mind.

Recommendations:

Innate:    N/A,  N/A,  N/A,  Water
Symbiotic:    Stone/Sand,  Acidic or Flame,  Bolt,  Ice
Adjacent:    Plant,  Acidic or Burst,  Wind  Water or Ice
Opposite:    Stone or Plant,  Acidic or Burst,  Bolt or Wind,  Water or Steam

[Salanewt]

Hey, I'm going to try bringing the discussion about this topic here.

How about this: I create a poll for multipliers, and we vote it out? We probably won't even have to change the reference guide if the results go against it, as we can just treat the numbers that are not divisible by 10 as multipliers that may readily be tweaked based on preferences (that is, if we don't allow for values that are non-divisible by 10).

However, I still agree with the totals - they shouldn't have to be exact, and should allow for +/- 10-20 points in total. After all, the multipliers don't work by themselves, but multiply the stats of the person. We will just have to make sure that whoever has lower multiplier totals will have base stats that don't make them suffer, unlike Garet. Besides, mages generally have lower physical stats than warriors, even though every unit has magical stats based on their elemental powers/resistances; everyone can change them with djinn. To make up for that, it sort of makes sense to give them slightly higher multipliers in some things than the warriors, or else that makes them sort of inferior.

[Misery]

I'm just going to leave a general comment based on the direction the current class stat discussion seems to be going. Totals of stat multipliers are not an absolute, numerical representation of a character's strength. Individual stat multipliers are not interchangeable, each stat has a different purpose and is dependant on the context (class abilities, character base stats and equipment options). 10% attack does not equal 10% defense, etc. so keep that in mind when designing classes. Also, different stats are more or less valuable depending on level. I could bring up a few extreme examples, but I think you all understand this simple concept already.

About the multipliers divisable by 5 idea, I'm not directly opposed to it (except for luck), I just don't see any reason to use it. But I think the suggestion has been around for longer than I have, so I've never cared to argue against it. Since the stats being modified are pretty low, another 5% won't make much of a difference (as has been pointed out already). The only problem is that they may make a class look balanced only on paper, but that's stuff that will be fixed in playtesting anyway.

[JamietheFlameUser]

Actually, I'd say that 10% Attack probably IS equal to 10% defence. However, 10% Attack is not equal to 10% Agility, which is definitely not equal to 10% HP or PP, which is most definitely not equal to 10% Luck.

[leaf]

Yeah, I think I'd weight atk/def/hp pretty equally, but they're all worth more than pp/agil/luck.

I've been strictly opposed to the 5% system since it was first brought up, and while I think I've given my arguments against it in the other thread, I'll do so again here, if someone would like me to.

[Misery]

Well, I guess I brought up the worst example. But even if attack and defense are roughly equal (in the sense that they serve a related purpose), those figures aren't linear through the character's level/equipment progression. The point stands, in any case.

[Today]

Today at 18:00:23

Teawater: By the way, I was wondering, did anyone else notice the ".gba" ROM in the Downloads section?

[Today]

Today at 16:54:26

JamietheFlameUser: Well, that particular Briggs fight was from a long time ago. I haven't been working on my current hack the past few days because of other stuff.

[Today]

Today at 16:40:10

Luna_blade: @Saturos: Your english exams?

[Today]

Today at 16:33:40

Teawater: Can't remember exactly what shae of yellow it was, so not sure it would be too close or not.

[Today]

Today at 16:30:58

Teawater: @KoP: Wouldn't Shiny Gold be for the Sol Clan?

[Today]

Today at 15:37:37

Salanewt: Oh wait, tag doesn't work down here. But yeah, how is your hack going Jamie?

[Today]

Today at 15:37:00

Salanewt: [me] considers giving him the Sol Blade...

[Today]

Today at 15:36:00

Salanewt: Oh my. To be honest though, I'd be more likely to give Briggs stuff from later regions; him being a pirate from another continent and all.

[Today]

Today at 09:36:58

JamietheFlameUser: How not to design boss fights: give human-type bosses stats and equipment on par for what the Editor says their level is and what equipment is available where they're from. You get stuff like an actually scaled to level 21 Briggs with a Great Sword, Silver Plate, Silver Helm, Vambrace, and Leather Boots. God, that was BS.

[Today]

Today at 09:09:49

Saturos: Wow first part of exam is ower (in english) tomorow speaking part.

[Today]

Today at 07:11:35

JamietheFlameUser: Eh, I didn't know the exact chance of Curse screwing you over. Still, that 6% chance to fail to act at all could screw you over when it matters most. The obvious solution, of course, is to stick that armour on a character who doesn't do anything but spam attack moves anyway.

[Today]

Today at 07:10:52

leaf: ...assuming I'm remembering the chance of curse taking effect correctly as 25%

[Today]

Today at 07:09:50

leaf: in fact, you get two turns the majority of the time (~56%), and only completely fail to act ~6%, the remainder of the time getting one action

[Today]

Today at 07:07:49

leaf: I like that stealth armor buff. it wouldn't make sense to do that with the clerics ring available, but if you remove that, it's actually an interesting item. On average, you get ~1.5 turns per round. it's potentially very strong, but carries risks

[Today]

Today at 07:04:59

leaf: lol

[Today]

Today at 06:39:21

JamietheFlameUser: Reading the Venus Psynergy topic and 'lol'ing at Role's reaction to a very simple spell idea I'd had (and still think is awesome), where rock explodes out of the ground from a single point in a focused, cone-shaped burst. Role read me the riot act about not combining elements again. lol.

[Today]

Today at 06:17:58

JamietheFlameUser: Well, one thing I came up with that was actually potentially cool is a modification to the Stealth Armour. I gave it +1 turns, under the assumption that the Cleric's Ring would be removed. You might get 2 actions that round, or 1 action, or maybe no actions at all! RNG at its finest.

[Today]

Today at 06:15:32

Knight of Purgatory: Nice orange text kain. Maybe it should be a shiny gold

[Today]

Today at 06:03:40

leaf: I concur. There isn't much I'd consider worth salvaging from dc in terms of work done, but reading the old threads can be quite amusing

[Today]

Today at 06:01:48

JamietheFlameUser: LOL I'm looking at the DCrisis Items/Equipment section. Role and I were both so immature about it (me especially) that it's hilarious in hindsight.

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